THEORY - 5ARI Withdrawal Syndrome

[flynn]

Hi there,

I came across an article outlining this theory of how PAS may have arisen. Rather than repeat what was in the article, I figure it is better if I just post a link to the original article. When I have time I may write out a summary but this is worth a read and is not too dense or long.

http://www.protocol-online.org/forums/uploads/monthly_08_2010/msg-19273-027408800 1282061244.ipb

 

[shivgeorge]

This is a fantastic paper flynn.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

This seems like the most logic explanation

 

[BD_Acc]

This is the simplest possible theory, but a big issue with it is that it doesn't apply for anabolic androgenic steroids.

Large doses of steroids will cause hyperandogenic conditions but don't result in reflexive downregulation of androgenic receptor pathways. In fact, I have seen evidence of the opposite, where steroid use actually upregulates androgen receptor levels.

They mentioned DNA methylation. The local anaesthetic lidocaine also demethylates and I read someone somewhere saying it reversed symptoms for them for a period. I can't find it now and can't remember if it was PFS or PAS.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

This is the simplest possible theory, but a big issue with it is that it doesn't apply for anabolic androgenic steroids.

Large doses of steroids will cause hyperandogenic conditions but don't result in reflexive downregulation of androgenic receptor pathways. In fact, I have seen evidence of the opposite, where steroid use actually upregulates androgen receptor levels.

They mentioned DNA methylation. The local anaesthetic lidocaine also demethylates and I read someone somewhere saying it reversed symptoms for them for a period. I can't find it now and can't remember if it was PFS or PAS.

This is saying the androgen receptors got down regulated because of less androgens not more.

 

[BD_Acc]

It's saying the androgen receptors got down regulated because of normal androgens with up-regulated receptors.

The drugs reduces DHT levels/signalling, which upregulates receptors/pathways. Then a return to normal DHT levels/signalling post drug with now up-regulated receptors/pathways causes over-signalling and a reflexive permanent down regulation of DHT receptors/pathways.

Steroids would be acting on normally regulated receptors/pathways with high DHT/androgen levels, roughly mimicking the post drug state this theory holds responsible.

Maybe receptor hypersensitivity due to less androgens initially is essential for the pathology to develop, but at this stage the theory doesn't explain why a sudden high dose of AAS (still androgen over-signalling) wouldn't trigger the same response.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

It's saying the androgen receptors got down regulated because of normal androgens with up-regulated receptors.

The drugs reduces DHT levels/signalling, which upregulates receptors/pathways. Then a return to normal DHT levels/signalling post drug with now up-regulated receptors/pathways causes over-signalling and a reflexive permanent down regulation of DHT receptors/pathways.

Steroids would be acting on normally regulated receptors/pathways with high DHT/androgen levels, roughly mimicking the post drug state this theory holds responsible.

Maybe receptor hypersensitivity due to less androgens initially is essential for the pathology to develop, but at this stage the theory doesn't explain why a sudden high dose of AAS (still androgen over-signalling) wouldn't trigger the same response.

I think the theory is full proof. The AR becomes hypersensitive because of low androgens not because of high androgens. Another issue is that not many individuals have bloodwork prior to the use of 5 alpha reductase inhibitors. Just my opinion though, no hard feelings!

 

[Dubbya_B]

@BD_Acc was right, only mis-stated by a couple words:

It's saying the androgen signal got down regulated because of normal androgens with up-regulated receptors.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

@BD_Acc was right, only mis-stated by a couple words:

It's saying the androgen signal got down regulated because of normal androgens with up-regulated receptors.

Have you tried a zero vitamin a diet?

 

[Dubbya_B]

Have you tried a zero vitamin a diet?

No, it's idiotic. The theory behind the zero-A diet is rooted in a conspiracy theory and the unsubstantiated presumption of prolonged storage of retinoids after Accutane treatment.

Total depletion of vitamin A has been proven to have adverse health effects. Found this today while surfing Scholar:

https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/294836

Another related to (reversible upon reinstitution of vitamin A) effects on hippocampus:

https://www.pnas.org/content/98/20/11714.short



Granted, this is different that a reduced vitamin A diet under the assumption that a little goes a long way and that over-supplementation can be harmful. It is known that Roche were unethical and dishonest slingers of retinoids and the whistleblower was sent to prison for doing the right thing. Sick world!

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

No, it's idiotic. The theory behind the zero-A diet is rooted in a conspiracy theory and the unsubstantiated presumption of prolonged storage of retinoids after Accutane treatment.

Total depletion of vitamin A has been proven to have adverse health effects. Found this today while surfing Scholar:

https://europepmc.org/abstract/med/294836

Another related to (reversible upon supplementation) effects on hippocampus:

https://www.pnas.org/content/98/20/11714.short



Granted, this is different that a reduced vitamin A diet under the assumption that a little goes a long way and that over-supplementation can be harmful. It is known that Roche were unethical and dishonest slingers of retinoids and the whistleblower was sent to prison for doing the right thing. Sick world!

I’m trying zero vitamin A for the next month. I will then re-introduce vitamin A after and see if I feel better or worse

 

[Dubbya_B]

Well, good luck to you sir. I don't think a month of vitamin A deprivation will seriously harm you or anything, but doubt it's good for you.

Remember to report any positive or negative results.

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Will do!